Are you a van lifer, RVer, or sailor looking to turn your nomadic lifestyle into a profitable venture? It can happen! In this episode, we will explore various methods for making money as a travel blogger while living the van life. From sponsored posts and affiliate marketing to creating and selling your own digital products, we will cover it all. Laura Peters is our guest on this episode of The Wayward Home Podcast, where she talks all about scaling her own travel blog and creating a course to help others do the same.
Laura lived in a 5th wheel travel trailer and has also done extensive traveling around the world as a digital nomad.
Check out Laura's FREE TRAINING on how to scale a travel blog.
What We Cover about Travel Blogging
And here are Laura's links:
If you listen on Apple podcasts or Spotify, a quick rating or review will really help me out. Thanks!
Want to live the van life but have no idea where to start? My FREE Van Life Starter kit has specs and measurements on 10 different vans, van buying and build ideas, remote work ideas and websites I use to find free campsites.
Download it here: https://thewaywardhome.lpages.co/van-life-starter-kit-podcast/
Connect with Kristin Hanes and The Wayward Home!
Are you a van lifer, RVer, or sailor looking to turn your nomadic lifestyle into a profitable venture? It can happen! In this episode, we will explore various methods for making money as a travel blogger while living the van life. From sponsored posts and affiliate marketing to creating and selling your own digital products, we will cover it all. Laura Peters is our guest on this episode of The Wayward Home Podcast, where she talks all about scaling her own travel blog and creating a course to help others do the same.
Laura lived in a 5th wheel travel trailer and has also done extensive traveling around the world as a digital nomad.
Check out Laura's FREE TRAINING on how to scale a travel blog.
What We Cover about Travel Blogging
And here are Laura's links:
If you listen on Apple podcasts or Spotify, a quick rating or review will really help me out. Thanks!
Want to live the van life but have no idea where to start? My FREE Van Life Starter kit has specs and measurements on 10 different vans, van buying and build ideas, remote work ideas and websites I use to find free campsites.
Download it here: https://thewaywardhome.lpages.co/van-life-starter-kit-podcast/
Connect with Kristin Hanes and The Wayward Home!
Hey there, it's Kristen of the wayward home.com, and I live part of the year in my camper van in the US in part on a sailboat in Mexico. So today on the podcast, we're talking about one of my favorite topics, which is blogging. Blogging or sometimes known as niche site creation is a great way to make money on the road or just from anywhere. Running the wayward home is how I make my full-time income. So another woman who's done really well with blogging is Laura Peters. She's owner and author at Mike and Laura Travel and the CEO of Scale Ear Travel Blog. Com. Laura used to live in a fifth wheel trailer and still owns it to this day, and has also traveled all over the world. So Laura, I'm so excited you are here today to talk to me about blogging and an in particular travel blogging. Yeah, we're, I'm super excited to be here too. I, I think it's just kind of a mysterious topic for a lot of people and I love opening the world up to the possibilities of blog. Totally. And I think one of the things that people, um, think when you say the word blog or travel blog is that you're just writing about yourself and you're writing about all your own journeys. So can you clarify a little bit like what's your travel blog and what, what, what is travel blogging today? Yeah, actually a lot of people think exactly the way you had positioned it and think that I just talk about my awesome trips to the beach and, you know, sipping martinis and what I did the other day. And, um, people think of it as very diary style. However, we don't do that. almost at all. Of course, we include our personal experiences, but it's more so about giving information to the people who are looking for the information. And so we're very specific about what we write. Um, we write for our audience, not for ourselves. I keep my diary for myself and, uh, I keep my blog for mostly information for, for other people to do what we. Totally. And so why did you, um, start a, a, why and when did you start your travel blog? Yeah. So I actually started blogging in 2014 and I giggle because at the time it was exactly what I'd said Our blog is not today. So I wrote a lot about my experience living in Thailand. Um, I was a teacher there and so I thought, I'm just gonna write about my day-to-day life. And my family and friends thought it was exciting, but no one else cared. Um, so I did that, uh, like I said, started in 20. Teen, um, didn't really see anything good come out of it other than, you know, I'm putting some information out there that entertainment for people. Um, but it didn't start generating any money or, or giving us, um, you know, the support we needed to travel until about 2019. So it took a while to really figure it out. Um, and I think that a lot of people go through that. A lot of people aren't quite sure how to do it. Yeah, definitely. And what do you think when you were, you know, you started and you started writing about yourself, it was more like a diary. When did you figure out that, oh, I need to be actually writing for what other people wanna know? Yeah, actually I was listening to a podcast and it's probably, probably pretty relevant. Um, it's the RV Entrepreneur and I was listening to that and they were talking about blogging and how their blog generates a full-time income for them. And I sat, sat there and thought, man, That's what I want. How are they doing it? But I'm not doing it. And they kept throwing out this word, SEO O seo, O S E O. And the acronym just like completely went over my head at the time. But I kept hearing it all over in the blogging space because I was trying to immerse myself into the world of blogging. And SEO will absolutely come up. And it was the, the one thing that needed. Change for me. And it was, it was what took our blog from a hobby to an actual business. So that's how we figured it out. Yeah. That's exciting. I have a similar story where I was just writing random articles about people living an alternative lifestyle, which was really cool, but nobody was finding them. They didn't know, like, you know, if you're not writing for things to come up on Google, nobody's ever going to find them So I learned that as well. Um, so. Yeah. And how did, so SEO sounds pretty daunting to people, I think. And even like me, I just read books off the internet. I'm like, but these aren't clicking. How did you actually implement and learn about s e O in a fun way? Yeah. At first it was, like you said, it was daunting. It was kind of scary and I, I put it off for a while. I tried Pinterest, I wanted to, you know, tried to get them most out of Pinterest and, um, I really, really knew what I was doing, but it just didn't translate to the results that I wanted, which was a blog that supported us full-time. And so I finally decided to, you know, start learning more about seo. I learned so much about SEO that I became quite the expert and it was within like a two year period, and all I did was. Listen to every single possible thing I could and, uh, purchase every single course I could about SEO and about blogging. Um, and for anyone else who's listening to this, if you're looking for a way to really dive into seo, one of the best options is, is podcasts just like this? You know, listening to this is going to potentially. Interest you in, in finding more information about seo. You go into your podcast player, type in certain keywords like SEO or backlinks or you know, affiliate marketing, and you'll find maybe not the entire podcast specifically about it, but maybe they have an episode on it and those are going to be gold. Um, so that's how I really learned and how I. Kind of reduced the overwhelming feeling that it brought for me because again, it's daunting, it's scary for a lot of people, but just learning everything I could about it gave me so much more confidence. And then just doing the thing, you know, practicing is, is going to be what really pulls you through and, and teaches you. Yeah, I love the idea of podcasts as a source of free information. I've also listened to countless podcasts on all aspects of blogging. That's kind of ridiculous. And then, um, did you also hone in on like a couple of courses that you took that, that changed your, um, your blogging journey? Yeah. I actually took a lot I took free courses, I took paid courses, I did everything I could get my hands on because this was my goal and I wasn't going to let it slip away. I was going to make this work. And, you know, I'm, I'm the kind of person, I'm, I'm just relentless. So, um, I went all in. I put all my eggs into the SEO basket. I took, um, you know, Mike. Mike Fruit, uh, Fu Mike's course. Stupid Sy Sio Yeah, totally. Yep. I took that one. I, I took several affiliate marketing courses. Um, I took a massive email marketing course. Um, and all of those combined was what helped me create this blog that generates enough for us to live off of. And then some, um, and, and I would say that, it's about, you know, not just, oh, I'm going to learn in this space and then I'm going to be good. It's, you need to, you know, diversify where you're learning from. Um, and so I thought that that was really helpful. You know, of course, a lot of times people shy away from certain courses and it's like, if you can learn one awesome thing from one course, you can take that and move mountains with it. So, um, while I've taken some courses that weren't great for me, I always found a golden nugget in every single thing that I did. So yeah, that was kind of my biggest push. Yeah, that's fantastic. And what types of articles, um, came out of that training about seo? What were you writing that was different than what you were writing in the. Yeah, at first my, I think my very first blog post, I actually still have a screenshot of me posting it on my Facebook page. It was super embarrassing Um, but the title was Let It Snow, let It Snow, let It Snow, and I was talking about Thailand, which is hilarious because it does not snow in Thailand. And so that's kind of what I was going off of at first. And I was telling people about how I missed home and, and how I wanted to, uh, you know, be home for the holidays and things like that. And now we write articles like best things to do in Bangkok at night, or, um, you know, where to stay in Bangkok when traveling solo or you know what to do in. Crabby with kids. And so it's very specific to what people are actually searching for. Because otherwise, if, and you know this very well, if we write about something that people aren't searching for, it doesn't matter how good the piece is or the article, no one will ever find it. So it doesn't matter. Uh, so it's, it's kind of like the. The chicken and the egg situation, except we know for sure that we need to accumulate readers and then we can, you know, spread what we want to what, what kind of information we wanna give them. Yeah. So you said it took from 2014 to 2019 to become profitable, which is quite a few years was that Yes. How was, what was that experience like for you? Like what kind of emotions did you go through during that? That's a great question because I think back to that time and I cringe thinking like, man, if I just knew then what I know now, it would be such a different world. We would've gotten such a headstart on blogging. Um, but it doesn't matter because I'm glad I didn't give up. It's, you know, anything worth doing is gonna take some time. But during those five years, it was like a cycle. It was kind of like, uh, So I would, I had a full-time job and I would blog on the side, but I, it, I treated it like it was also a full-time job. So I had two full-time jobs. One that didn't pay me yet, which was blogging. And um, you know, I would go at it for six months, really hard. I would write every single day and, you know, I would write good articles. They weren't 800 words. I mean, these were bulky articles. I would wake up every morning and I would look at my analytics and I would think. When is this ever going to work for me? This isn't working, but I just need to keep going. And I thought that if I was consistent, something would change and it never did, even when I was consistent, because again, no one could actually find me. I didn't have the SEO skills. To get my information out there, we need a platform for people to find it. They're not just going to be typing it into the, you know, the URL bar. They need to find it some way. Um, So, yeah, it was, it was incredibly frustrating. I remember thinking, you know, if I could just make a hundred dollars a month from my blog, I will be happy that I will make that a hundred dollars stretch. I will live in a cave, if that's what it means. Like I will live out of my car, which I didn't even own a car like I was bartering or bargaining with myself and saying like, keep going, keep going because, There's a light at the end of the tunnel. I didn't know the light actually existed, but now I know because we've seen it and it's, it's really awesome. But it was tough, man. It was really, really tough to get to where we we are today. But, um, Yeah. And did, I'm sure you've kind of gone through a similar type of situation with yours, Yeah. Yeah. And I'm happy that, you know, I wish I had known about SEO from the start. Um, yeah. Do you think that that makes a pretty big difference? If someone's starting a travel blog now and they, they get the training, they know seo o do you think they could get their legs or, you know, start making money sooner than. Six years or whatever. Yeah. Right. Uh, absolutely. Yeah. So, um, a lot of the people that we coach and train, they start to make money within five months rather than five years. Like it took us to make, um, money from it. But it's, it's really all about the strategies you use because it's. It doesn't have to be a long game. Of course it's not going to be a get rich quick scheme, but it is going to be a lot less than doing it yourself that's for sure. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's why it's so important just to get that, the training and coaching upfront. I think because you're armed, which is so much knowledge cuz nobody learns about how to blog in school. Like we don't have degrees in it. Nobody does. And that's how I treated it, is like, I'm gonna learn this and I'm gonna get a new degree in this. So I feel like, like with me and you both, both very persistent in achieving our goal and our dreams. So I think it takes some of that grit and persistence. do. Do you think that's like a quality of a successful blogger? Oh my gosh, yes. In fact, um, sometimes we get questions about like, why do you even have mindset trainings in your. Program. Like why do you even include that? I don't need that. But your mindset is exactly what will keep pushing you forward when blogging gets tough because it does. We've all been through it. I know you've probably been hit with an algorithm update that you're like, oh wow. Thank you for that Google, and it's not great. We know that there's life after an algorithm update. We know that there's life after, oh, this affiliate program shut its doors. So now we are missing out on a huge chunk of money that we used to have. We know that. But if you're just starting. Half of the battle is just being relentless and continuing to push even when you don't see results right away. And I think that is the biggest reason why people give up because they don't see the overnight success and they don't have the right mindset of going into this and thinking, I will make this work at all costs. It doesn't matter what work I have to put into it. And the people who are able to do that and see through the boundaries and see through their own. Mindset are the ones that get the results. They're the ones that create a blog that makes really good money. Yeah, the mindset thing is super important. I remember that too. I was unemployed and living on off of unemployment checks and just working relentlessly on my blog, like 40 hours a week and trying to make money on the side. And it was just like, oh my gosh, I'm doing this for no money. And luckily, you know, I lived on a sailboat. Rent was low, so, but it took a lot of hard work and not making. Like 20 cents from from Ad revenue. I was like, what Yep. But it just, we all know that story, but it just takes that, you know, pursuit. And people in your course, you've seen them succeed after trying hard, right? Mm-hmm. Yeah, and it's interesting because a lot of people will ask us, well, have you ever had someone in your program fail? And I said all the time, but it's not because of the strategies. It's because of their own blocks, their own mindset blocks of, I don't wanna put the work in because I don't think this will work. SEO works every single time as long as you keep doing it and as long as you do it the right way. And so, you know, we know that, and we know it's just kind of based on statistics, really. You see what works and you do something just like it, but better. But it, it's, it's seeing through that and push. and continuing where people get stuck and that's when I have to say, yes, absolutely people fail, but it's because they're holding themselves back. And I get it because, you know, I've, I've been in those situations too where it's really hard to continue, but as long as you know that like SEO is, is very mathematical based or set statistics based, you know that it will work. It always works. You just have to keep going. Totally. And what are some of the benefits of SEO over just sh sharing on social media or Pinterest? Yeah, I love that question because I love SEO I love just getting so excited about SEO o and geeking out over it. I do it for fun, but um, basically why I like SEO over say social media is because with social media, you have to constantly be engaging and updating and posting and, and just being a part of the platform so heavily. They want you to basically spend your life there and. You know when you post, you know, we've posted some reels that we thought were really great. I worked on them for hours, and then I post them and they get the lowest amount of views, even though I was following all the things and that people tell us to do. It's really a guessing game. It's really about. Kind of luck and about just guessing to maybe, hopefully this works. I'm not super creative and so I'm not really into that realm. Again, I like where there's proven results. I like to know that what I'm putting in is going to work, and so s e o on the other hand, You don't have to be very consistent with it. I've gone, you know, five months without posting on our blog and our traffic has only increased. Now is that true for everyone? Not necessarily, but it just shows you that like, consistency doesn't really matter. Um, we have a blog cuz we, we create lots of blogs now that we know how to do it. We have another blog that. We haven't posted in, in over a year, and it still brings us three to$500 a month. And so that's the one thing I love is you don't have to be consistent. Another thing is that with SEO O you can be very specific about what you are. Targeting or what you're talking about as opposed to social media, let's say Instagram. If you post something on Instagram hoping to reach people who are traveling to Tahiti, well, it's kind of a guessing game. You just have to hope that the people you're reaching on social media have some type of interest in Tahiti. And on the other hand, with blogging, You know that they're interested in Tahiti because they're Googling it, they're searching for it. So we know that we're harnessing the right people, we're getting the people that are actually interested in this on our blog. Um, so that's number two. And then of course, the click through rates. The click through rates with social media and Pinterest are so much lower than they are with say, Google search. So when you tell somebody to do something on social media, the first thing. Say Pinterest or Instagram, they're going to not show those to more people. They don't want people to leave their platforms, so the, they bring the engagement down as opposed to Google that. That's what they want. They want you to deliver good information to, to their people. And so those are the biggest differences for me, and those are, that's why I like SEO so much because it is like a proven, scientific based way to, to grow. Um, their algorithm is, is pretty obvious. Uh, so that's what I really appreciate about seo. Totally, I completely agree with you. I also do hardly any, uh, social media stuff. I really kind of dislike it, but it, you know, once in a while I'll put something, but it's definitely not a, a driver of traffic to my site pretty much at all, which is exciting. They, people can realize they don't need to do social media, and I think that's a lot of people don't want to, and that holds'em back from even starting a blog. So, exactly. Yeah. We get so many people that say that to us. They say, you know, I, I was so interested because you said I didn't have to use social media. I'm so happy, And I'm like, don't worry. We'll show you the good side of blogging. Yeah. You don't have to do the, the social anymore. So, Totally. So if someone wanted to start a travel blog today, um, do you think they have to go to all the places they're writing about or how does someone even decide which travel niche in particular to cover? Cause there's a lot Totally. Uh, I actually used to think that Ning gown was like, so, so important and that you couldn't grow a blog unless you had a specific niche and. Personally, I mean, I've kind of grown out of that belief because we have talked about different places and um, you know, we have guest posts from other people that will talk about different locations that, you know, we haven't mentioned in our blog before, and they do really well. So for us, we fully believe it's just based on the keywords that you're finding and keywords. For anyone who's listening and might not understand what we're talking about, a keyword is. Another fancy word for a topic, it's a blog post topic, and it's what somebody would type into Google. So we believe fully that it's about the keywords you're really targeting rather than being super niche. Now, does it help to be niche? Yes, absolutely. Google will see that and think, wow, they aren't this one hit wonder of, oh, we're gonna talk about this place and never talk about it again. They won't see. as you having authority in that destination. So for us, like for example, we live in Steamboat Springs. And we write a lot about Steamboat Springs, and when we write more about a specific destination, Google sees that and thinks, wow, they must know something more about Steamboat than these other people do, because they write more about it. So they probably have a better, uh, perspective on that. Destin. and then Google will show you to more people or show your work to more people. Now, do you have to go to these places in order to write about them? Not necessarily. Um, if you look at some of the bigger websites, like say Travel in Leisure or TripAdvisor, any of the big travel websites, They probably didn't go to half of these destinations. They probably just did a lot of research and wrote a well-written article about what people want to find and what people need to find. Is that wrong? Some people don't like it because they feel like you should have visited that place, but in my opinion, I. Have been to Rome before and I went and listened to this historian talk about ancient Rome, and was I upset because he wasn't in ra ancient Rome, or had been in ancient Rome during that time? No, because I trust that he's done his research. And I think Google can really see that too. It's not just about, um, you know, getting the rankings, but it's about truly giving people the best information possible. And if you can do that through research, Than, you know, more power to you. But it does help. It does help us for sure when we visit a place and we talk about it because it's so much easier to write about it. That's true. So someone can kind of do a combination. If they do go travel somewhere, they can write about it, but they can also do research based blogs on their sites. They don't have to be limited to, oh, I have to go everywhere in the world to be successful. Exactly. And, and that's another thing is. at some point you will have to do some research for the blog posts you write, because let's say you went to Kauai and you're trying to write a things to do in Kauai Post. Well, you may not have done all of the things, but you still should cover those because. People don't wanna just hear about your experience. They wanna hear about all of the possibilities, and so yes, you've been there. Maybe you haven't done all of the things, but you should still cover all of the things in depth because it's going to be what's best for your reader. Very true. So, yeah. What are some of your best, uh, tips and advice for a brand new travel blogger? Yeah. Um, first of and foremost is to 100% learn SEO o right from the get-go. Some people say, well, you know, I wanna do Pinterest and, and learn some other things before I learn seo, in my opinion, going. To learn SEO and then re-implementing. Everything you learn is a pain in the butt. And I always think if you can learn it right away, then you have so many few, like, so few, uh, mistakes that you have to change that you've already implemented. So the fewer mistakes you need to change in the future, the better. So you might as well learn SEO from the get-go. That's number one. Of course, number two is to really learn keyword research. It's a part of seo. Um, for anyone listening and not sure what that is, keyword research is just a part of seo and it's very important to help you find the best topics to write about. Uh, so that. you rank on Google and get people to your website. Um, you know, it's a balance between the two because if you can write a blog post that has a lot of people searching for it, but you can't rank in the top 10, then you know, you might not wanna write that post. So it's really about balance between competition and the number of people projected to be searching for that. Um, so make sure to master keyword research, it's, it's very helpful to know. Um, and then finally just, I think the best thing that I would do, and what I always do with anything is if you have, um, If you have a goal, you should always have goals, but put that goal as like the background of your phone. Put that goal as the background of your computer. Put that goal as the alarm on your phone when you wake up in the morning so that it reminds you of this because your goal is what's going to keep pushing you forward. Because like we've talked about, it's not super easy, but it's worth it, and that's the best way to keep pushing forward is to have your goal in mind. Yeah, totally. And I think that a lot of people think, oh, these blogs failed. It's not possible, but you and I are proof that it, they don't fail if you work hard and you learn your stuff. And so I think that's very positive and should be inspiring to people as well, I think. Yeah. Definitely. And you know, a lot of people ask, well, isn't blogging, you know, isn't, isn't it going out of fashion? Isn't this going to end sometime soon? And I just say, well, do you think Google's going to end sometime soon? Do we think that Google will disappear? Probably not. They're the longest standing. Platform of all of these platforms we're talking about. So I'm gonna put my money on Google and ride that wave. Um, and as long as Google's around, I think blogs are safe. So, yeah. And now I wanna talk a little bit about your coaching program, because you became so successful with s e o and your own blog and sites that you decided to teach other people. So tell me a little bit about that. Yeah, so I remember when I first started blogging again back in 2014, however many years ago, and it was so hard, and I remembered being so frustrated and I thought to myself, as soon as I figure this out, I'm going to tell everyone I know. and that's how scale your travel blog came about. Because as soon as I cracked the code and I knew exactly what I was doing, I started to teach other people in different capacities. At first, it just started with, you know, a couple of clients helping them, and then I thought, man, I could reach more people and help even more people by putting this into a course with coaching on the backend, because I know how important it is to have direction with things like keywords and have direction with hey. Blog post even good. Where did I mess up? Um, and so that was my ultimate goal was to. Take everything I knew about blogging, all the very, very important things, and put'em on a silver platter and deliver them to people. And for me, what was difficult because yes, I've taken all of these different courses, which were fantastic, but there wasn't an all-encompassing course for all things. Travel blogging. So yes, you can find courses on seo, but then you should find another course on affiliate marketing. Ours ties both of those in. And then you should also think about email marketing, because email marketing is being proactive with your blog. If Google ever went down the tube, well now you or you got hit with an algorithm update, well now you have readers with. Email list you always will have that. You don't ever have to worry about it because you have an audience. Um, and so we wanted to not only tie in SEO and affiliate marketing, but also the proactive email marketing as well, and put that all together. Um, and so that's what we've done. We've helped, or we have people, um, how do I. I guess from start, we started in January of 2021. Um, we've had 365 people join us and go through our course and our, our coaching program. Um, and I think for me, the biggest thing is just the results is so awesome because I can sit here and talk all day about how awesome our program is, but if nobody gets results, then what kind of program is it? So we're, we're very invested and. Proud of the results that our students get from. That's so cool. And the, the coaching part is, is really neat as well. So people will get access to you and one-on-one training with you or group training with you? Yeah, so it's group training. Um, we actually used to do, we used to sell a different package that had one-on-one, but then we morphed it into a group training because we realized that the one-on-one trainings were mostly just mindset. It was meeting with people and they would say, okay, this is what I'm doing. And I'm like, that's awesome. Keep doing. And they would say, well, that's it. You don't, it's that, what else should I do? Nope, you're doing it right. This is exactly what you need. Uh, or, you know, it'd be talking people off a ledge. I, I haven't, you know, increased my traffic in the past 10 days and I wanna quit. And it was a lot of mindset work. So we built that up in the course itself. And then offer trainings outside of that, um, to really make sure people feel supported. So if you aren't seeing the results you want, okay, refer back to this portion of the course. We don't have to sit in a one-on-one and have me tell you you're doing it right. Good work. Good job. You can just refer back to the actionable steps and do those things. So we. We've done many iterations and we've found that this one is the most supportive and this is the one that helps people get to where they need to, uh, the fastest. Cool. And then you also have a, a free, um, webinar, right? That people can learn more about this. Yeah. Yeah. So the webinar I run, uh, I won it, I won it I run it every week. Um, and it changes varying, um, based on the, uh, the weeks that and availability that I have, but I usually do them on Thursdays or Fridays. And it's, uh, I just cover the three secrets that you need to know to exponentially grow your travel blog. And we go over those three components, s e o, affiliate marketing and email marketing a bit more in depth so people really understand, um, you know, what they, what they need to know to do this. Cuz like we've talked about, it's not so straightforward. It's not just, oh, I'm gonna DIY this. This is a skill that you need to actually learn. Um, and the best way is through people who have. Very true. That's all so exciting. Um, uh, of course we'll put links to both the free training and your, your course and coaching below in the show notes. And yeah, thanks so much for joining us. Is there anything else you wanted to, to tell people about travel blogging? Um, I guess the biggest thing is just keep going. I mean, there is a light at the end of the tunnel. It's real. We know we've, we do it every day. Um, and the results are, Fantastic. It's just, it's, it's not easy, but it's the best way to live, I think so, um, you know, if you're going through a tough time, keep going. And if you're thinking of starting, there's no better time than now. Totally a hundred percent agree that it's the best way to, to make money online cause it's mostly passive after you've done most of the initial work. And so it's really exciting and I hope tons more people join your, your course cuz you obviously know what you're doing and you're so passionate and excited about it, which is a huge component. So yeah. So thank you so much. Thank you, Kristen. I so appreciated being on your podcast. I've followed you for so long and very much admire your work, so it's really cool to be here today. Thanks. Thank you so much.